Sarma Melngailis: Bad Vegan, Memoir as Recovery, and Reclaiming Your Story
I am fascinated by "the story behind the story." There is always a frame around what you see, and in only some moments -- you notice.
In this episode, I sat down with Sarma Melngailis to discuss her extraordinary new memoir, The Girl with the Duck Tattoo, and the eight-year journey of writing it (which starts prison).
Sarma is most famously known as "the bad vegan." But properly introduced, she is a Wharton Graduate, French Culinary Graduate, Bain Capital alum, and the founder of Pure Food and Wine and One Lucky Duck, a beloved and innovative vegan restaurant and brand in New York.
She also had a personal misadventure through a "cult of one" and gained international fame after the Netflix docuseries "Bad Vegan" sensationalized her story.
Sarma shares the rise and fall of her business, the psychological manipulation that led to her arrest, and her desire to reclaim her story after the release of Bad Vegan.
Links to Platforms:
We discuss:
What the Netflix docuseries got wrong—and how she’s correcting it.
The emotional and creative process of writing a 200,000-word memoir over eight years.
How storytelling, honesty, and empathy can help others escape manipulative relationships.
A must-listen for anyone interested in storytelling, self-publishing, or the psychological dynamics of coercion and recovery.
Quotes from Sarma:
“I was in a cult of one.”
“People very often don't understand how this happens to someone who’s intelligent, who went to a good school, and started a business. But it does happen.”
“I started writing immediately after I got out of jail.”
“I had no editorial control... They basically changed the reality of what happened.” (on the Bad Vegan docuseries)
“I didn’t want anybody telling me what I can and can’t put in there... I wanted to have control over my story.”
“The book is long because I needed the reader to go through the psychological experience with me.”
“I have all my receipts. I included actual journal entries, G-chats, texts, and emails.”
“The writing was therapeutic, but also grueling. Sometimes I felt like I was crawling up the wall and slithering out of my skin.”
“I want the story to be useful. That’s what I’ve wanted all along.”
“People tell me, ‘I don’t read books anymore, but I read yours.’ That feels amazing.”
“Even if you're never going to publish it, writing about what happened to you can bring real relief.”
“I turned down a deal with a major studio because I didn’t want to give up control of my story again.”
“It wasn’t about power—it was about protecting the integrity of the story.”
“Someone told me they left a toxic relationship because of reading my book. That alone makes it all worth it.”
If you’re considering writing or publishing a book, be like Sarma and retain complete creative, legal, and financial control of your book! Come talk with my team at Scribe Media.
Scribe Media helps executives, entrepreneurs, and business leaders to write, edit, publish, and market their books.
Scribe created a new category called "Professional Publishing" -- the best of both self-publishing and traditional publishing. With Professional Publishing, the author owns all rights and full creative freedom, so you can do anything with your book. You also keep 100% of your royalties.
You're getting the same level of professionalism as a traditional publisher—book design, interior design, and your own publishing imprint. All with maximum author freedom.
This is how I published The Almanack of Naval Ravikant and The Anthology of Balaji, and what I believe is the future of publishing.
If you’re considering publishing a book, take 20 minutes to meet with someone from Scribe to learn more about the publishing landscape. To get in touch with Scribe, click here or email me to get started.
Learn more about Sarma Melngailis:
Additional episodes if you enjoyed:
Paul Millerd: Profits in Publishing, Why Self-Publish, How Authors Make Big Money
Nat Eliason: From Blogging to Sci-Fi Novels, Writing Books That Last, and Owning Your Audience
Episode Transcript:
Eric Jorgenson: Sarma, it's a huge pleasure finally to see your book out in the world after what I know is a long, arduous creative effort on your part.
Sarma Melngailis: Yes. Yes, thank you. No, it feels really good because I spent eight years working on it. Now that sounds like a lot of time. There were long stretches of time that I wasn't working on it at all, but the process start to finish, I started it eight years ago. So yeah, it feels good to have it out.
Eric Jorgenson: I bet. So, let's start with, for people who are unfamiliar with you, your background, your life story, let's start with a little bit of that. And then I think that'll sort of lead us straight into the decision to write the book.
Sarma Melngailis: Sure. Yeah. I had a restaurant and a growing, expanding brand called One Lucky Duck and the restaurant was called Pure Food and Wine in New York. And if I was somebody else describing it, they would describe it as a celebrity hotspot. I can't say that that's weird, but it was very popular. We got a lot of press because it was some say a bit ahead of its time, but it was a raw vegan restaurant, but that sounds like something unappealing, except it was incredibly- it was very, very good. And I can say that because it was my staff and the people working there that were really the creative forces more and more over time. So, I'm complimenting them, not myself. But it was a really amazing restaurant. And I was in that position where people kept coming to me about expanding and growing and having worked in private equity in the past myself, I was very wary of certain types of investors, and then I had just broken up with a four-year relationship that was a really lovely relationship and at a weak point in my life, and this man entered and sort of took over my life in a way that was basically as if I was in a cult of one. And people very often don't understand how does that happen to somebody who's intelligent, went to a good school, started a business, they don't understand how that happens, but but it does happen. And it led to the complete destruction of my business, to it appearing to have been my fault or intentional, and then criminal charges filed, to which I pled guilty because I didn't really have another option. And I spent four months at Rikers, and I knew pretty immediately that I would write the story. And I started writing sort of immediately after I got out of jail. And that's sort of where the eight years started. So yeah, it's been quite the journey.
Eric Jorgenson: It's an incredible hook that that's actually where the book starts, isn't it, with your entry into the system?
Sarma Melngailis: It starts with me throwing up in a small Tennessee jail, which is where I'd been arrested, and I was having a caffeine withdrawal and got a migraine and nauseous and throwing up, and everybody around me was withdrawing from hard drugs, but for me it was just caffeine.
Eric Jorgenson: That's quite an indictment of my caffeine habit probably. And the story now has been like probably most, you say it's most famously told in the Netflix documentary Bad Vegan?
Sarma Melngailis: Yeah. So what happened, I was already in the process of writing the book and had in fact written kind of most of a, probably most of a very rough draft. And I was approached about doing a docu-series that was made and then sold to Netflix. And it really did not tell my story correctly at all. So, I mean, people call me gullible or naive or how could I have believed this con artist man who came into my life, and then this docuseries was made, and I was gullible and naive and just trusting that if it's a documentary, it's going to be like journalism. They're required to tell the truth. And apparently they're not. And I think they should be. And so, I immediately had to sort of take to my website and online and write a whole thing about why it should be called docutainment or something else and having to- but it was frustrating. I was put in a position of having to explain myself and be on the defensive and explain all the things they left out and how misleading it was and how they moved my words around. And I have all the receipts, so at least I have that on my side. But that was a really painful experience because even though some people watched the series and were very sympathetic and just thought the ending was confusing... but a lot of people watched it and came away thinking that I am a criminal and a horrible human being. And so, then I got the corresponding fire hose of incoming hate alongside with a lot of incoming sympathy. So somewhere I wrote that it's sort of like getting alternately hugged and punched in the stomach at the same- like you get punched and then hugged and punched and hugged, and that's basically if I look in any of my incoming messages, that's what that felt like.
Eric Jorgenson: That's not an appealing package. I think I would take, I'd take no punches and no hugs over the combination.
Sarma Melngailis: Yes. And so, when the docuseries came out, I had a rough draft written, but it sort of became that much more imperative for me to get the book out to get my real story out because I think anybody who reads my book and then watches the series or watch the series and reads my book will see how very different the portrayal is.
Eric Jorgenson: Yeah. God, that must be such an incredibly surreal experience. I don't know if you watched it directly yourself or saw all this secondhand, but to like see your story told through the most sensationalized sort of third-party frame must be...
Sarma Melngailis: It feels really weird and the first time I watched it, and they titled it Bad Vegan, so I knew what the title was, but I thought they had titled it that because the tabloids had sort of portrayed me as a bad person initially. And so, my thinking was they titled it that because I get it, it's sort of a catchy title. And here's the story of how I really am not a bad vegan. But in fact, they tell the story in this way where you could kind of come to either conclusion. And it was sort of a bit of evil genius on the filmmaker's part, the way that he did it. But I mean, evil at my expense. So that was very challenging. And I also didn't benefit from that series. And I know that they did to a huge degree. And so, that was another painful part of it is just they had a huge payday from that show at my expense, and then I'm still left with all the debt that I had before.
Eric Jorgenson: Yeah, how does that happen? I'm not familiar with the mechanics of that. I mean, they were working from your manuscript? Or you participated in that, you just didn't have any editorial control or economic control?
Sarma Melngailis: I had no editorial control. So, I did two all day interviews. One day was 12 hours and the next day was like another probably most of a day. So I'm exhausted. And there was very little preparation. There wasn't anybody there sort of guiding me either. And so, I just have this director who doesn't... he'd read some inputs. He knew what really happened. But he's sort of asking me questions about it, and then, yeah, they have full editorial control. And then I also made these audio calls for them by actually getting on the phone with the guy who basically destroyed my life and hurt a lot of other people that I care about through me. And so, I get on the phone with him to record him without him knowing for the film, for the show, so I can get some audio of him. But then they misused that, and they made it look like I was caught on a hot mic and moved my words around and everything. So, they basically changed the reality of what happened and used that material kind of in a way that, to deliberately make me look bad at the ending. And that was just, it was painful.
Eric Jorgenson: Yeah, extremely painful.
Sarma Melngailis: Yeah, which... And it leads right into why I felt so strongly now writing, to put my story out, that I did not want to go to a big publisher who I know, I mean, I've published two cookbooks with a big publisher, and that's very different. A cookbook is very different than a memoir. But I knew that I didn't want to be subject to anybody else telling me what I can and can't put in there or how long it has to be, or you can't say that, or take this out. So, I felt really strongly about wanting to have control over my story.
Eric Jorgenson: Yeah, there's maybe no better poster child for editorial control than you, who's been through this ordeal.
Sarma Melngailis: Yeah, exactly.
Eric Jorgenson: Yeah, so the book, this is sort of interesting to layer all these events. So you're released from prison, you have almost immediately started writing this book, then the documentary comes out a couple years later, sort of as you're still writing the book?
Sarma Melngailis: Yes. Yeah, I was mostly done with the draft. But I mean, as you know, it's a long book. Fortunately, the most gratifying thing that I hear from people, like almost every day, is that they can't put it down, and that it moves quickly, and that it's kind of, it flows, it's sort of easy and fun to read. I mean, fun from the... It just moves quickly. So, that's really gratifying. But it is a very long book, and it's a complicated story to tell, and I bounce back and forth in time. So, it took a really long time to, even once I had an initial very long draft, to then not only cut it to make it shorter, but moving things around and in what order do I put things and to keep the story flowing. And then every time you decide, okay, well, I'm going to delete this story because I don't really need it in here. But then you have to go back and find all the places you referred to that thing. It's just a whole, it takes quite a while. And all the while, I had other jobs or was working on other projects. So sometimes I'd put it down for six months and not even touch it. Yeah. So it was quite a process.
Eric Jorgenson: The editorial complexity goes up, I think, with like a square or a cube of the scope of the project. And how long was your first draft?
Sarma Melngailis: My first draft was about 300,000 words, and the final book is 200,000 words. So, the book, as it's printed now, is 650 pages. So, it would have been close to a thousand pages if I included the whole shebang.
Eric Jorgenson: Yeah, I mean, it's editing War and Peace multiple times. And for people outside the industry, a typical book is averaged closer to like 60,000 words, give or take 10,000. So this is 3x even in final form.
Sarma Melngailis: Yeah, it's a big book.
Eric Jorgenson: Yeah, it was a real bear. So I imagine, I mean, the the intensity and the intimacy and the importance of the project like doubled or if not 10Xed for you after Bad Vegan came out. You were like, oh my god, I have to control and own my story and I have to get this right and I have to get it out and I have to really like correct the record, essentially, right?
Sarma Melngailis: Yes, yes. And I spoke to, I had people putting me in touch with agents and publishers, and I just... I rationally kind of knew that it didn't make sense. I mean, it was tough because I could have really used the money of an advance, but I just knew. And every time I had a conversation about it, I had that sort of feeling inside like this isn't right, this doesn't feel right. So, I knew that I wanted to, however possible, make it happen to go do it the independent way.
Eric Jorgenson: Yeah. Well, I'm very glad you did it, and I'm very glad you chose us.
Sarma Melngailis: Yeah, I am too. I had all the good feels when we had our conversations about it. And yeah, I remember I was listening to a podcast with David Goggins, and when he mentioned in the podcast, and I'd already read his first book, and when he mentioned that he almost signed a deal and then pulled back and did a bunch of analysis and decided to go independent and then he went with Scribe. But when I found out that he did that, it made me feel so much better because I thought, oh, okay, if Goggins did it, then I feel better, I feel even more validated that this is the way that I want to go. I knew too he would have done very thorough research, and so that's how I came to Scribe.
Eric Jorgenson: Yeah. It worked out well for him. I think this is such an interesting, fun and unique book for us to do. We do a lot of nonfiction. We do a fair amount of memoir, but like this is a very interesting, I'm not sure how you would describe it to people, but like from my view, it's a very interesting combination of like memoir, true crime, and like psychological thriller.
Sarma Melngailis: Yes, that's a very good way to put it. I'm going to use that now. Memoir, true crime, and psychological thriller.
Eric Jorgenson: Yeah, there's just so many different things. And part of the length of the book, I think, is sort of a device that shows you how deep and convoluted the rabbit hole that you personally went through is, like you give the reader the experience of being slowly lost in this like cult of one as you put it.
Sarma Melngailis: Yeah, exactly. I mean, I debated, I cut as much as I could, but it got to the point where I realized if I cut it anymore, I would lose that element of exactly as you described, that it kind of takes the reader along the ride with me. And if I didn't do it, if I didn't leave it the way that it was, and I sort of took out more, much more of... What's interesting is that I was able to recover a lot of my actual digital communications with this man, not all of them, but enough that there's a lot there. And so I include a lot of it. And I think that it's really important to read his words. And sometimes even when he gets repetitive and he's sort of drilling this sort of stuff into my brain and you see what I was subjected to over time, and I realized that there is an element as a reader where you're sort of deep into the last, into three quarters of the way in, and the reader is probably like, oh my god, again? Oh my god, he's doing this again? He's saying this again? But they're really getting the experience of what it was like. And I think had I tried to make the book half as long or cut out too much more, you would miss that and kind of miss what the experience was like.
Eric Jorgenson: Yeah. I think it's very interesting, like how this is the kind of creative project, the honesty of it and the uniqueness of it feels really difficult to drive through traditional channels. And so, I believe that like a breadth of creative expression is really important philosophically. And so, whenever we get to do a book that's like, there's no book like this, that's such a satisfying feeling.
Sarma Melngailis: Yeah. I like that you said that. That's cool because I would have a hard time thinking of a book to compare it to. I mean, maybe there's other people who've written memoirs about being in a cult, but this is a bit different. And there are a lot of elements. I'm well aware of sort of, in terms of the saleability of the book and the appeal, it's like there's a little bit of celebrity stories in there, and there's a glimpse into the restaurant world, and there's sort of different elements involved. But one thing that I... it's just interesting now that it's out there and I'm getting a lot of feedback, but a number of people have told me too that there were places where they laughed out loud and that it was a bit of relief, which is kind of exactly what... in real life, it's like even while he's kind of torturing me many times via this digital communication, I would make like stupid jokes or just joke because it's a coping mechanism. And I think when you're reading a difficult story, to have these moments that are sort of ridiculous or funny, it provides relief. And so, I mean, I appreciate that in films as well. If you're watching a difficult scene and then something sort of funny happens, it's a bit of psychological relief. So, I'm gratified that people are appreciating that too.
Eric Jorgenson: Yeah, refreshes the palate. So, tell me about the writing process itself. I mean, sort of maybe what you expected going in. You'd done books, you'd built businesses, but you'd built cookbooks before. And so, this memoir was like a very unique kind of project. Did you have any background in writing, creative writing? Like, just give us a snapshot of like Sarma on day one of book writing.
Sarma Melngailis: I mean, in my prior life, I'd written a blog, but I would write these- I would write not very often. But when I did, I’d write very long posts. And my cookbooks were a bit unique in that, especially the second one, which I wrote on my own, there was quite a bit of sort of narrative in there. So sort of used to writing, but yeah, I'd never, obviously, never written a book or a memoir. And I think the process of writing it is therapeutic in that if you've been through something traumatic, especially something that's hard to understand, it's not straightforward, going through the process of writing it feels as grueling as it can be to kind of relive those moments and try to sort them out in your head, on the other side of it, there's relief because it's like now you've written it down and you can kind of move past it. And that feels really good. So, sometimes I tell people like, even if you're never going to publish it, writing out what happened to you, there's a lot of value there. But there were a lot of times where I'm working on it and just felt like, I think I even wrote in the book at some point that working on it, I sometimes felt like, I don't know, like crawling up the wall and slithering out of my skin. Like I just didn't want to be doing it and in it, and it felt really, really uncomfortable. And of course, that makes all of the things... people kind of classically tend to procrastinate writing anyway. If you just have to write an essay, it's like easy to procrastinate because you just don't want to do it. It's hard to write sometimes. And then add in the factor of how unpleasant it is and having to go back into this really disturbing, dark stuff, it made, like procrastinating was super appealing. Anything to do something else other than working on this. I mean, there were parts of it that were really fun to write. So, I really enjoyed writing the parts where I go back and I talk about the early years of the business and some stuff from college and my early career in finance and the early days of building the business. A lot of that stuff was really fun to write. So, I got to balance that with the darker stuff.
Eric Jorgenson: When you're writing, do you get like an immediate catharsis, or do you feel like you're just making steps towards that, and the catharsis actually happens on the recognition of someone else? Or is it just confronting it and writing it down that's satisfying in itself?
Sarma Melngailis: I think it's confronting and writing it down. Maybe in my case, it's different because there's this whole element of wanting my truth to come out because it's been told incorrectly and I've been publicly judged for it. So, there's already this public perception, and now I'm getting to put out the real story. So, there's definitely- it feels gratifying to be able to put it out there and have it be read by other people. But even if I wrote it and never published it, I think it's even proven to be therapeutic. I think Andrew Huberman did a whole podcast about this where if you journal about really traumatic stuff, it brings, somehow they studied this psychologically, and it like actually brings you relief if you write about what's most painful. And I think that makes sense. It's like you're getting it out of you and onto the paper, and then it's out of you. It's on the paper. It's not living around inside your body and nervous system as much, so you feel relief no matter what.
Eric Jorgenson: Yeah, get it out of- it's just been bouncing around in your head for so long, getting tortured...
Sarma Melngailis: Or as Bessel van der whatever his name is, would say, he wrote that book the Body Keeps the Score, which is like one of those books that still appears on the bestseller list so many years later. But I think his book argues that it kind of lives in your body too, in your nervous system.
Eric Jorgenson: Yeah. So how did we- Now that we're looking at the book as a published thing, your eight years of like creative challenge and effort and grind are over, how close is what's out there now to your initial vision going in, and how did the book sort of transform through the process?
Sarma Melngailis: The book itself or?
Eric Jorgenson: Yeah.
Sarma Melngailis: I'm very happy with the book. I'm happy with the physical thing. That was one of the things, like weighing the pros and cons of going independent versus a big publisher, one of the things on the con side, which there were not a lot of them on that side, but one of them was that worry about what it's going to look like physically. And I'm very happy with how it looks. And what's funny is I did- a friend of mine came over and we did a photo shoot, and in some of them, I'm holding the book, and then he started telling me, can you throw the book? And I was like, what? And he wanted me to throw the book, like sort of towards him, but right behind him. And so we got these really cool pictures where the book is like suspended in the air in front of me. To get those pictures, I threw the book like 30 times and hit the wall really hard, and it's survived it fine. I was very gratified that it survived being hurled against the wall 30 times, and like the binding didn't break, nothing. So yeah, I'm very happy with the book. I'm very happy with the cover. And yeah, I'm very pleased with that part of it. The process of putting it out there is not- is different than I expected only from my own personal side in that I was going to be relaunching my business and sort of had timed it, had been originally thinking that the timing would be that I would relaunch my business, the book would come out at the same time. I am doing another docuseries which is in progress, but that's something that wouldn't come out for probably, I don't know, maybe a year from now, maybe less, maybe more, who knows. But that timing didn't quite work out as I expected. But yeah, once it's out there, it's like, all right, now it's just this ongoing process of do another podcast, that leads to another thing, do another bit of promotion, do a this, do a that, do an event. I'm not doing it according to the traditional models where authors come out with a book and do a bunch of events right away. Which I always thought was weird because I did go to some book events. I mean, I would like to go to those things generally, but I sort of went just to kind of think about it. And what's weird is that it's like publish, pub day, book event, and so you go to the event, but the book has just come out. So, nobody's read it. You are just sitting there listening to the author do a reading and talk about it, but nobody in the audience has read the book, unless they were able to get an advanced copy. But nobody in the audience has read the book. So it's like a weird... Why would you have an event when nobody's been able to read the book? Seems kind of weird to me. So, I just locked in an event at a bookstore near my sister's house in Vermont for September. But yeah, I'll just keep doing events and things. And yeah, now it's like an ongoing job of promotion, which is...
Eric Jorgenson: Yeah, the final marathon. I would say the first marathon is writing it. The second marathon is publishing it. And then your never ending third marathon is a promotion and awareness.
Sarma Melngailis: But it's nice because the work is done, the book is out there. So the promotion is just an ongoing thing that can be done at any pace. And so, yeah, I have podcasts scheduled. It's sort of spread out.
Eric Jorgenson: And you're getting great feedback that you can kind of roll into additional promotion and reviews and things like that. And your story is so unique and you've got other hits coming between the business, and I mean, people are still watching the documentary for better or worse. And so, there's just perennial interest in this sort of thing. And having new perspectives on it, new information on it, like there will be endless curiosity. And so, you'll have a ton of opportunities, I think, for years still to promote the book, correct the record, get your story out there.
Sarma Melngailis: Yeah, and I think what's gratifying is that it's not just kind of here's an entertaining story to read, but here's a story that I know feels really validating for a lot of other people. Because one of the things that I learned through everything that happened to me is just how common it is. And it's something that isn't talked about a lot because it's humiliating to be psychologically manipulated. It's something that most people don't understand. So, when it happens to people, whether it's in a relationship or a group dynamic or however it happens, or it's like a family member, it's very isolating. But I just know that it's been really helpful for a lot of people who've been through this to read my story. And then the other part that feels good is that I hope that a lot of people will, especially younger people who read it, will go forward in life and be that much more likely to recognize the signs if somebody comes into their life and it starts to be manipulative and weird, and having read my book, maybe they'll recognize what's happening sooner and avoid it.
Eric Jorgenson: Yeah. As you point out, I think a few times here already, it's very difficult to empathize with somebody from that third party point of view. People who watch the documentary, some of them empathize, but maybe it's only the people who've had near experiences or somebody in their life go through it. And otherwise, it just feels like, oh my God, that would never happen to me. Most people, I think, come in with that mindset. So, if your book can help people empathize with this as a state and inoculate them, hopefully, against it and keeping others in their life from falling into these kind of things, this is life-saving work.
Sarma Melngailis: Yeah. And then there's a third sort of element of usefulness that feels really good too, which is if somebody has been through this and they're in that situation, which I understand, where they feel like their family doesn't understand, if their family then reads the book, they can go, oh, now I understand what happened to you because I read this very lengthy story about it and now I see what you went through was similar to that. So, that part of it feels really gratifying. And I already have kind of an outline for a book, a follow-up book already. I mean, I've had it for a while, but more and more I know that I need to write that follow-up book too.
Eric Jorgenson: What’s that?
Sarma Melngailis: Well, I mean, believe it or not, I stepped into another situation. And one of the things that people are very curious about is my four months at Rikers and I don't talk about that. I opened it with when I was arrested and I was in jail for about 20 days. So, I write about that part, but then I don't write about, the story sort of comes to a conclusion and references my getting sentenced, but I don't talk about that four months at Rikers. People are very curious about that. But even when I got out of Rikers, I came out, and my defenses were down because I had nothing but debt. I felt like I have nothing to take. I'd been through two situations where men came into my life and got an enormous amount of money out of me. And now here I am, it's very public. I am in piles of debt. I don't... So, my defenses were down, and somebody came into my life and craziness ensued and then I learned it wasn't always about money and it was much shorter, but kind of a lot of craziness there too and some pretty interesting stories. And I'll change names, but it's worthwhile, I think, to tell that follow-up story while also then getting to talk about, tell some of my crazier stories from my four months at Rikers, because I have a lot of nutty stories from that time. And also a lot of... it made it easier to shorten this book knowing that I probably will write another one. So, I might have wanted to include sort of more, even more analysis and more commentary than I did, but knowing that I needed to kind of get it to a somewhat digestible... It felt like 200,000 words was kind of the limit. If I made it longer than that, it would have been a little out of control. So, a lot of the things that I cut out I would be able to put into this follow-up book.
Eric Jorgenson: It is very hard to find the boundaries of a book. Something we have to tell authors all the time is, don't put everything you know in one book. But it's really, a big part of the art is finding the boundaries and the definitions of where to stop writing about a particular topic or a particular timeline. And it does help, as you point out, to say like, nothing is wasted. Like, pull out that whole chapter, and maybe that's the start of your next book. You don't have to kill the darlings, you just have to pull them out of this particular boundary.
Sarma Melngailis: Exactly. Just put them on hold.
Eric Jorgenson: Very interesting. Yeah, we have a lot of authors who come into this, it's arduous to write a book. It's hard. It's torturous, in particular a memoir like this where you're confronting really hard experiences and memories. And the thing that pulls a lot of people through is just thinking, this book can save one life. Like, just kind of the paying it forward mindset of this might be the lifeline that helps somebody else either avoid the whirlpool or pull them out of it. That can be super, super motivating and totally changes the frame from this is a success if it sells a million copies or if it gets on the New York Times bestseller list to I have an opportunity to save one life, I may not even know who that person is, but I'm going to put in these hours, I'm going to do this work and I'm going to just do that.
Sarma Melngailis: Yeah. And sometimes you do know the person because I've already had somebody exit a situation after reading my book.
Eric Jorgenson: Really?
Sarma Melngailis: Yeah, and that person is very happy and so it feels really good. It feels kind of interesting that somebody has completely changed their life because they were reading my book and started to recognize things and realize that their own situation was not a great one. And so, yeah, I've already gotten that.
Eric Jorgenson: Wow. And they reached out to you after reading it?
Sarma Melngailis: Yeah. I mean, it's somebody that I knew before, but not super well. So yeah.
Eric Jorgenson: That's incredible.
Sarma Melngailis: Yeah, for sure... And then, I think we had talked, I had had conversations a while back about a scripted series, and that's another way that sort of the longer version might be useful, my original longer draft, is that there's been discussions about a scripted thing and the ability to put more into that, more that actually happened that's actually part of my story but didn't necessarily make it into my book, that's another way that those pieces that I wrote that I didn't include in this draft can get out there.
Eric Jorgenson: What are you doing differently with this new docuseries that you're a part of now?
Sarma Melngailis: Well, it's a very... it does two things. One is it's telling the story of what really happened, which again is very different than the way it was portrayed in that show, Bad Vegan. And then it's also covering my time moving back to New York to restart the business. So there's sort of like a real time element. And then going back and correctly telling the story, and importantly, including all of the analysis of how does this happen? Because that wasn't included in that first docuseries. There was absolutely zero analysis. They had interviewed a psychologist who understands all of this stuff for a full day, but they didn't use any of it. So, there's nobody in that docuseries saying, this is a thing that happens and here is how it happens and here's all these psychological dynamics. And there was nobody explaining it in that first docuseries. And that, as a viewer, I find that stuff fascinating. I mean, I've watched other shows where, I don't know, the Fyre Festival one on Netflix is a good example where they tell this kind of crazy story, and the whole time I'm wondering, okay, when's the analysis of what was really going on in this guy Billy's head? Like, did he think that...? That's what I find fascinating and there was none of that. It was just sort of like, look at this train wreck. And so we'll include the part that is, I believe, really fascinating and all of the analysis so that people can understand and actually learn something about what are the psychological dynamics at play, all kinds of things from dissociation and cognitive dissonance and the way that they sort of tap into your emotional system and bypass your rational thinking and then putting you into a state of fear, which also compromises your rational thinking, and all of the things that- and then what are the conditions that need to be in place for this to happen in the first place. All of that stuff, which I think is interesting, we include in this one.
Eric Jorgenson: That's super interesting. It's one of those things that's not always obvious when it's not there. But Netflix's motive is to create the most viral salacious content and tap into that sense of judgment that we have or, as you point out, the rubbernecking look at this train wreck kind of thing. And it probably serves them to have a sort of ambiguous end because then there's conversation about it rather than feeling like there's an end to the story. And the fact that it's presented as a documentary when it's deliberately cut as entertainment is not ethically great.
Sarma Melngailis: No, not at all. I mean, it was really the filmmaker, because they made it and then they sold it to the platforms. But yeah, he made it in a way that you can very easily see people kind of arguing around the water cooler about, well, she was in a... no, she wasn't, and that in itself creates controversy. But yeah, I think it was made and probably appeals to that whole genre of people that are into watching true crime, where you are kind of watching train wrecks and I don't know. I don't understand that appeal because I don't like watching that stuff.
Eric Jorgenson: Because you've been in a train wreck.
Sarma Melngailis: I've been in a train wreck. I don't want to watch it. I don't want to emotionally put myself in those places again. But if there's something to learn and there are valuable stories and there's takeaways, then it's worthwhile. So hopefully that's what we're doing with this next one.
Eric Jorgenson: As an author going through the kind of whole creative experience, what was the high point and what was the low point?
Sarma Melngailis: I mean, the low point, I guess, was probably just having to relive some particularly grueling things. And then not only once, but then you're editing it over and over and over again and reading it again and again. So, that was probably the most difficult part. And I think the high point is just, I don't know, finishing it. Is that too obvious to say? I mean, finishing it and also just having people get value from it is really gratifying and feeling like I put something out there in the world that will allow people to have more empathy for other people who've been through the situation or to feel less alone if they've been through it and less stupid because what happens is when you go through something like this, people don't understand. How could you be so stupid? How could you believe that person? How could you? How could you? And so to read somebody else's story, I don't know, makes a lot of people feel less alone. So, I think that's really gratifying.
Eric Jorgenson: Yeah. I was going to ask, I think you've had a few good answers to this already, but maybe there's more. What are some of the unexpected good things that have happened as a result of getting this book out there in the world?
Sarma Melngailis: I don't know. I'm hoping that there are more unexpected good things to come. And I think that because the way that I've, I have a bunch of podcasts sort of in the works, so... I'm just going to keep going and one thing will lead to another, to another, to another. And yeah, I guess I look forward to more of those.
Eric Jorgenson: See more of those pile up. I mean, it sounds like you saved a life already. You're getting great feedback on the book, about the reading experience, about the dark and the light.
Sarma Melngailis: Yeah, no, it is. I mean, I say this, but it feels so, so, so good that I keep hearing from people that they can't put it down. And also, so another thing is that I didn't do the audio book yet. At some point, I'll do that, but I haven't done it yet, which again is just I'm not doing it- and I'm sort of doing it differently than, in so many ways that traditional publishing happens. So, I've heard from a fair number of people who've said to me they don't read books anymore because I think so many people's attention span or ability to sit and read a book and focus has been compromised because of our world of, the way that we exist now with social media, all the stuff coming at us. But so the point is that a lot of people would tell me that they don't read books anymore and they don't have the patience and attention span for whatever reason have been able to read this. And they're like, oh, it's the first book I've read in years. And they're reading it, enjoying it and getting through it. So that feels really good too. I wasn't expecting that.
Eric Jorgenson: That is amazing. Especially for a big book. Like, it's not a quick read. But I do think it's a beach read. Like it'll get a...
Sarma Melngailis: Yeah, I mean, I like to tell people that it's kind of like you're just reading two or three books that are just bound together. Because, I mean, I've read some really long books too, and there is this element of like, it's kind of a slog, certain books, or when it's heavy, or it's hard to read, or it's hard to follow. And I think, fortunately, the pace of this, reading the book flows, and it's easy because it sounds like my voice. It's just, you don't have to like focus really hard to understand what I've written. It's just as if I'm telling you a story. So it moves very quickly. And yeah, so it feels good in that way. It's just like a couple of books bound together as opposed to like reading Crime and Punishment or something.
Eric Jorgenson: Yeah, those long books or even series are so satisfying partly because, my favorite example of this is Shantaram. Like it covers 10 years of a very full and fascinating life. And so, when you finish that book, you feel like you've lived a whole nother life. And it's a really immersive experience when you spend so many hours with someone. It's just a different thing than breezing through another Bridgerton novel or whatever it is.
Sarma Melngailis: It's funny, I have that book. It's in my to-be read, not quite pile, but I have to-be read books everywhere and that one's in them.
Eric Jorgenson: Oh, just read the first page. It's my favorite first page of any book I've ever read.
Sarma Melngailis: Oh, yeah. I think I have read the first page. I think I wanted to read it, but I'm always- right now, I'm reading like, I'm probably reading the most different books at the same time because a bunch of other people have sent me their books and then I've become friendly with other people who had the same pub day as me. And so that's fun, it's sort of like you link up with these people and you're promoting each other's books, and that's been really fun. But then like you want to read those books really quickly. So, I've got a lot of books that I'm reading at the same time, and so I haven't read that. But one other thing that I would say that was a little bit different than expected is, and other people who've put out memoirs have told me this, is that you feel like really uber vulnerable when it comes out. Like it just feels, I mean, I don't know if it was sort of psychological, but I developed this like stye on my eye. Again, good thing I didn't have like these public events scheduled because I had this really unattractive stye on the bottom of my eye right when it came out. And I mean, I've talked to other people who have said the same thing, that you just feel very, very, very, very vulnerable and like you just kind of want to crawl under the covers. And so, it's weird because you're celebrating and you're excited that it's out there, but at the same time, part of you just wants to sort of curl up in a little ball and hide under the covers and you just feel very exposed.
Eric Jorgenson: Yeah. I was going to say, there's like a clone of you walking around naked all over the world and you are not sure that you...
Sarma Melngailis: And you're not like feeling hot either. You know what I mean? It's like you're naked and pale and it's cold and you're shivering and your hair is matted down. It's not like an attractive... It's like you're, yeah, you feel super vulnerable. And like, are people going to accept me? Yeah, you just feel very vulnerable. So that's something I would, I don't know, I mean, I don't know what you can do to be ready for that. But I've talked to other people who put out memoirs that were not nearly as kind of deeply personal, and I've heard that same thing. And even from, I listened to a podcast with Christie Brinkley talking about her memoir and her having this panicked feeling when it was coming out that like, oh my God, is anybody going to care? Is anybody going to read it? Is it just going to sit there in piles and nobody's going to buy it? And I thought, oh, she felt that way too? So, I think it's pretty universal if you put out a memoir that you feel really super vulnerable and exposed.
Eric Jorgenson: Yeah, I mean, all books are personal, everything with your name on it is personal. But memoirs I think are a whole nother level of like especially this kind of like extremely honest, you feel like there's already sort of a jury around you. It just takes a crazy courage. So, I appreciate and salute the artist's courage that it took to finish this book and get it out there and carry the flag and do everything that you're doing to promote it and help all the people that you're helping by getting it in their hands.
Sarma Melngailis: Yeah, thank you. I appreciate that. And I'm going to do it all over again, but it won't be nearly as grueling to write the second one. I think it'll be a lot smoother and more fun, but yeah, it's something I really want to do.
Eric Jorgenson: Yeah. Once you've been through the maze once, you at least, I don't know if it's faster, but at least you know that there's an end to the maze.
Sarma Melngailis: Yeah. Well, I mean, you know what the process is. And then I think importantly for me, what was really hard about writing this book is that because of all of the dissociation, there was so much that I don't remember and it was just really painful to try to go back there and a lot of work to try to piece things together and like looking at my Instagram timeline and emails and G-chats and texts and trying to figure out and then not remembering in what order things happened, and so having that sort of trauma induced dissociation, that made it really really hard to write. That was just like another layer of difficulty. So, with the second one, I won't have that. I remember everything. I have a lot more documentation that's straightforward. I feel like with that element removed, it will make it move a lot quicker and smoother.
Eric Jorgenson: Yeah, that makes sense. As we look forward, so we're recording this like mere weeks after the book has come out, so everything is still very fresh. You've just kind of crossed that threshold. But I really like to kind of project out five or ten years, whatever is a comfortable timeframe for you. What are you hoping that your life looks like in five or ten years and how does this book play into that?
Sarma Melngailis: Well, as I mentioned, I was working on restarting the businesses and that has been a much different process than I thought, but I think ultimately might work out for the best. Ideally, I've got my business back up and running, which the people, the people who appreciated it and loved it before really, really, really, really want it back. I mean, every day I hear from people, oh my god, would you please reopen? I want your products back and in a market now where it even makes more sense than it did before in terms of people being into very clean eating and clean ingredients. And then there's this added layer of people who never experienced the business, but they want to because of what they heard about it and have seen about it. And then there's just this element of, I can't tell you, it means so much to me, but also daily, I just hear from people, this is like people in my DMs telling me they're rooting for me and that it's so inspirational for them to see me go through what I did and to then stand back up and rebuild. So, I feel like there's a lot of support for this to happen. And it's kind of a no brainer to do it. And then coupled with a docuseries coming out and maybe a scripted version of the story. Like, I just want it to be useful. It's what I've wanted all along is for what happened to me and my story to be useful. So I think it can all come together in a really nice way. And so hopefully that's where things are in the future. And then I've got the second one out or coming out. And yeah, that's hopefully where I'll be.
Eric Jorgenson: That's amazing. I mean, that's the hero's journey. Like you build something up, you see it torn down or taken away and you have the strength to get up and build it all over again and prove that it wasn't luck, it wasn't timing. You can do it with- you can do it the first time and you can do it with a headwind. And that's the human condition, like trying to overcome the obstacles that fairly or unfairly come across our path. And when we see people living that, I feel like it's just this natural human instinct to like pile in behind them and support them and help them and help them rebuild and take some inspiration from it and believe that that person represents the best of each of us.
Sarma Melngailis: Yeah, it's interesting because I do sometimes, part of how I get through difficult things is I look at what's happening in the context of a story. And so, something that seems like kind of a devastating setback, I look at it and I immediately go, oh, I can project forward in this story where I'm looking back going, I'm so glad this thing came apart because that person clearly wasn't right for this. And so in the future, I'll be like, I'm so glad that fell apart and that person is now out of my life. And now I'm in this much better situation and it all worked out. So I just project forward. And whether that's a coping mechanism or a rational way to think about it, it certainly helps to think about as you're going through stuff, it being part of a story. And I've had that in kind of surreal ways too, where even when I was in jail, I sort of had these moments like, oh, I should remember what's happening right now because it's so funny or interesting or something that I could see being really compelling on the screen. So I need to remember this because one day it's going to be on a screen. I've had a lot of those moments.
Eric Jorgenson: That's very interesting. I think that's totally rational if not like- and even if it's not rational, it's useful. It's a useful relief. There's like this, the kind of classic fiction advice is like, create lovable characters and then put them through hell. And you see those challenges, the obstacles as what develops the character, whether it's fiction as you're writing or an experience that you're living and going through yourself. And it's our job to persist.
Sarma Melngailis: Yeah, exactly.
Eric Jorgenson: So how... I'm deeply honored that you chose Scribe and that we got to publish this book and play a part and be that kind of partner for you in like really owning your story in every creative decision. That's like a core principle of ours. I'm just curious, as honest, honestly is the only helpful way to answer this question, but just like what was your experience like working through this book with Scribe as a partner going from rough draft to published book?
Sarma Melngailis: Yeah. I can say with all 100% honesty that it was great every step of the way. If it was just you and me and we're not on a podcast, and you're like, look, just tell me what could we have done better...
Eric Jorgenson: Which I have done and will do.
Sarma Melngailis: I would be like, I don't know. I can't think of anything. I really had a great experience and felt very supported and very, very, very happy with the level of, from the editing to the cover design, the whole process, the level of, I don't know, the quality of the people and the whole process. And I know, having written, having gone through with a major publisher the process twice before with a cookbook, I feel really, really, really, really, really pleased with the whole process. I think it just... Having control over all aspects is so, so, so gratifying. And the timing as well, because with a major publisher, typically, it's like when the manuscript is finished, you're like, oh, it'll come out in a year from now or a year, basically to be able to do it at whatever pace you want is super gratifying. And then obviously to be able to control the process going forward in terms of pricing and paperback versus hardback and audiobook and all of that. I think you did a really good podcast with somebody and then there's a Tim Ferriss podcast out there that I have saved that I send to people all the time where they go through sort of the structure of traditional publishing and how the incentives of the big publisher and the author are completely misaligned and even at odds. And so, I for one think that the whole industry is going to be changing pretty dramatically.
Eric Jorgenson: Yeah, I think the environment favors self-publishers. I think Hugh Howey, is that the Tim Ferriss podcast?
Sarma Melngailis: Yes. That's a really good one. I have it saved. Whenever people ask me about traditional publishing versus independent publishing, I send them that episode.
Eric Jorgenson: Yeah, and my episode with Paul Millerd.
Sarma Melngailis: Exactly. That's the other one I have saved. Yeah, both of those are great. And my stepmother's a writer and I was at an event where she had a lot of her sort of writerly friends, and I was in the process of working on this book, and they're like, oh, who's your publisher? Like, you get that question all the time. And then when you say that you're doing it independently, it's not one of the big names, you get this look very often like, oh, and there's this immediate judgment where they sort of look at you as if... there's this immediate assumption that you couldn't get a publisher, that like you couldn't get a publishing deal. And it's like, no, I could have gotten a publishing deal, but I chose to do it this way because I'm playing the long game and for all the reasons that we've already talked about. So, I think, I hope that'll change over time too, because that judgment doesn't feel good.
Eric Jorgenson: Yeah. It's kind of, oh, you didn't go to an Ivy League school? It's like, no, I got a full ride to Berkeley. Like, sorry.
Sarma Melngailis: Exactly. And so, yeah, people, I try to clarify without being kind of obnoxious about it. But I wanted to say like, no, no, I chose to do it this way. I could have gone to a bigger publisher. I could have sold my book. But I also turned down a deal with a major studio for the scripted rights for similar, kind of for similar reasons, just because I felt like, A, the timing wasn't right, but also I would have been completely letting go of all control of the story, and I don't want to do that again. I would rather hold out for like, I think if it's going to be done in a scripted way, it could be done really, really, really well. And it needs to be, again, useful and sort of not... Anyway, either way. So, again, I sort of did that where one might have thought, oh, why wouldn't you take that deal? But for me, I'm sort of in the long game where I'm holding on to more- control sounds like you're being a control freak, but I view it more as protection. Like I'm protecting the story. I'm protecting the- I mean, I was very much like that with my business. The reason why there were a lot of outside investors that I didn't want to engage with was because I wanted to protect the integrity of what we'd created. And so, it's kind of a similar feeling here, is I want to protect the integrity of this versus it being like, oh, she's a control freak or she wants to have control/power. No, it's more about protecting the integrity of it and making sure that it's going to be maximally useful.
Eric Jorgenson: Well, and the creator's vision. Committees rarely make good art. And that's what you're doing when you sell the rights and when you sign up with a big publisher, what you're doing is giving layers and layers of people, some of whom you may never have met, veto power over your creative decisions, essentially, especially with something so personal as this, or when you have such a clear vision. You're giving up a lot for that money. They say you're selling your book for a reason, and you're selling your book in many cases before many decisions are made that you may want to make.
Sarma Melngailis: Exactly. Yeah. I mean, even people don't realize that publishers have control over what the cover looks like. I mean, especially for a memoir, how could you sell that to somebody else? And I've watched other authors too going through the book tours and doing all the grueling promotion and the beneficiary of that is mostly the publisher. I mean, the author is too, but the publisher is benefiting from all of that work, all of that ongoing promotion that you're going to be doing more and more and more and more, doing it this way, I'm the primary beneficiary, which is useful because I still got all that debt from the past to pay off.
Eric Jorgenson: Yeah, and you've got businesses to rebuild. I'm going to beg you and publicly and privately continue to beg you to do an audiobook. It is a shocking percent of my book sales personally as an author. It's so much higher than I anticipated and it's been growing. And I think there's a lot of people for whom, if they hear a book, they search in Audible or whatever. And if it doesn't show up in that app, the book may as well not exist to them. And they are a listener, not a reader as an archetype. And so that is a really, it's an important piece.
Sarma Melngailis: Yeah, I really, really want to do it. It's mostly just expense at this point. But I might have worked out some... a good option for a studio space. And my book will take a long time. I think also audio is where the length is an advantage. Because as somebody who, I'm on the Audible plan where you get like one credit every other month. So you want to make that credit- Like I'm way more likely to buy like the- I listened to the Walter Isaacson Elon Musk memoir and those 20 hour books is like a bargain when you use your credit for that. So, I think in Audible, a long book is an advantage.
Eric Jorgenson: I agree. I've heard Brandon Sanderson say the same thing actually, it's so funny.
Sarma Melngailis: Right, because you don't want to waste your credit on like a book that's four hours that you're going to listen to in one thing. You want to get your money's worth.
Eric Jorgenson: It's so funny, that's the opposite of like people are intimidated by long physical books, but they feel like they're getting a great value from long audio books.
Sarma Melngailis: Exactly. And I think there will be some fun options in terms of the voice of the Mr. Fox character and how I can do that, whether it's a male actor or his actual voice or AI. And there's also certain freedoms publishing this way where I might be more willing to take certain, make certain choices that a big publisher might, their attorneys might say, oh no, you can't do that, where I'm like, no, it's fine. It's fine. Really, that person's going to come sue me, bring it on. Like I'm fine with it. So that's another area where having the freedom to make certain creative choices is really meaningful.
Eric Jorgenson: Yeah, that's a great point. Well, Sarma, do you have any, this is always my sort of closing question, do you have any advice for authors who are just starting out or considering starting out on their first book as somebody who's just climbed the mountain?
Sarma Melngailis: I don't know. I mean, maybe like I'm very late to Substack. So, I started a Substack, and I think getting into that habit of writing posts and writing, especially if it's advice for somebody who's going to write a memoir, getting used to kind of writing about yourself and your own experience is certainly helpful. And also in Substack, you can kind of- it's a bit of practice. And then also once the book is out, it's useful because some of those, there are a couple of sort of complete chapters that I removed, like completed chapters, just took the whole thing out. And so I might be able to kind of put those into Substack. And I think that that's a good way to sort of start practicing. Also, people have been asking me for, I always tell people to read Mary Karr's book about writing memoirs because she's, I think, one of the greatest memoir writers. And I quote from that book in my book. So, Mary Karr's book about writing memoirs is great. And yeah, and I think writing it with the idea in your head, not thinking about the final product and how it's going to be received, but just writing your story as if you're telling a best friend everything that happened is kind of the easiest way to get through it and to think about it. And also just writing that first draft is probably the hardest part. I actually kind of sometimes very much enjoy sort of the editing process, but it's that initial writing part that's painful. And then... also, I found, I use Scrivener, which I quite like. I don't use it, I don't know how to use all the functionality there, but especially when your story isn't necessarily linear and you might want to move things around a lot, Scrivener is really useful for that, that writing software for like taking chunks and moving them around. And then at some point, you got to kind of pull it out and then keep it only in Word. But I found Scrivener really, really, really helpful, especially when you're potentially kind of rearranging sections and moving them around.
Eric Jorgenson: Yeah, love it. All fantastic advice. Thank you for writing this book. Thank you for putting it out into the world. Thank you for giving us a chance to be your partner in this. We're very proud of you and proud of the book.
Sarma Melngailis: I'm so very happy. And also, I made a website where I put photographs because putting pictures in a memoir, that would add a lot to the printing cost. But because I have so many photographs, I made a website, which confession, I haven't fully, I haven't finished uploading all the photos. Whatever. Again, I guess I'm just doing it my own way. But yeah, I mean, the website is just the title of the book. And then there's sort of a list of chapters and you can kind of click on each one, and there's corresponding pictures to what I write about in that chapter, which I don't know, I haven't seen anybody else do that.
Eric Jorgenson: Very cool, and pulls it into- makes the seemingly surreal feel even more real and present and shows the truth of everything that you went through.
Sarma Melngailis: Yeah, and I think it's just kind of fun, because when I'm reading memoirs, I very often start Googling the people and want to see who they are and what they look like and the various people that are in that story. So, I just made it easier for people and they can look online.
Eric Jorgenson: If you're like, did this really happen? It’s like, yeah, here's a photo.
Sarma Melngailis: Yeah. Oh, I have all my receipts. I mean, my book has a lot of original journal entries and G-chats and text messages and emails, and I have all of that backup. So definitely if somebody questioned anything, I could be like, oh, nope, I've got the receipts.
Eric Jorgenson: I love it. What an incredible undertaking and I'm so excited to see over the next few years the whole Sarma empire get rebuilt from restaurant to books to new docuseries and see how many lives get touched by the work that you've done. Thank you.
Sarma Melngailis: Thank you. Thank you so much.